Author Topic: original sin (Read 182 times)

alphaomega · « **on:** February 23, 2013, 04:58:20 pm »

What is it ?
What did it do?
How did we get it ?
What must be done to fix it ?

Amadeus · « **Reply #1 on:** February 23, 2013, 06:27:24 pm »

I probably don't know the definitions provided by mainstream churches, but they may certainly included in some cases an inherited sin, the sin of our first natural parents (Adam & Eve of Genesis). If by that it is meant that when we were born to out mothers we already had the one sin, I disagree. What I believe happened is the wrong door was opened and the right one was closed. Jesus made it possible for that to be changed by His sacrifice and by Himself becoming for us the right Door.

Because the wrong door was open from the one moment we began to absorb anything and think and decide anything, we learned from the things within that open wrong door: the tree of good and evil. We learned to be ashamed. We learned to sin because that was now the natural way of men. Men were not born with sin, but they were born with the way to sin open before them and quite attrractive. He was born with something that pulled him or drew in the direction of sin:

"For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world." I John 2:16

Those mentioned lusts and pride are not in themselves sin. They are, however, whenever they are followed, the pathways to sin. (Until we get rid of them, we will find ourselves repeatedly sinning after we have received the gift of Holy Ghost... because we continue to walk along those pathways.) We were born with these attractions in our innocence and we developed them with the help of those around us who influenced us. If our natural parents were living as devils, we probably moved along the road to sin a bit faster. If we had parents who loved God in a great measure, then the following verse could have come into play, depending on well those parents were teaching us:

"Train up a child in the way he should go: and when he is old, he will not depart from it." Prov 22:6

I would not say that we were born already being sinners, but we were certainly born to sin. We had from the start access to the wrong tree and we have continuously eaten fruit from it. Jesus has given us a way out of that inclination to death. He have given us access anew to that other better tree... if we will learn to eat from it rather than the other. We now have the same choices that the first Adam and Eve had insofar as which tree to eat from... After their disobedience, of course, they lost access to the Tree of LIfe. Losing access is not something we want to contemplate. It happened to them and it can certainly happen to us....

alphaomega · « **Reply #2 on:** February 24, 2013, 04:35:31 pm »

Quote from: Amadeus on February 23, 2013, 06:27:24 pm

I probably don't know the definitions provided by mainstream churches, but they may certainly included in some cases an inherited sin, the sin of our first natural parents (Adam & Eve of Genesis). If by that it is meant that when we were born to out mothers we already had the one sin, I disagree.

MY COMMENTS BELOW ;

let us examine the issue

Original sin;
What is it?
More importantly how is it transferred to us?
Does it affect us today?
While thinking on this; many will tell you “MARY” the mother of JESUS was not born with original sin.
Again to see if this is true or not we will need to answer the first three questions.

God breathed into Adam the image of god; the soul of Adam and he became a living being.
Did God breathe into Eve?
Eve got her soul from Adam.
Where do we get our soul?
The same place as Eve; the soul for each person is passed on from Adam whom God breathed it into to.

The soul that sinnith.

with the sin of Adam the soul has been tarnished
that tarnished soul is tranfered down to each person born
where do we get our soul? each of us gets his soul from his father
and this traces back to the father of mankind ( Adam)
who has tranfered this tarnished soul along to us.

How then is JESUS uneffected by this original sin ?
JESUS is not fathered by a human;
THUS his soul is not that of mankind.
Jesus is kin to mankind by his body.

SINCE WE HAVE A SOUL WE ALSO HAVE THE SIN OF THE WORLD

John 1:29
The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.
The singular sin; is the first one; it is original sin.

THE EFFECT OF ORIGINAL SIN

In the beginning was god
And god created darkness
And in the darkness angels are created and dwell
This is not the case for mankind
From the dust of land comes man
From the water comes land
From within the Holy Sprit the water appears.
MANKIND STARTS OFF AS FAMILY where-as angels start off as created beings; created outside of God
ADAM and EVE listened to the stranger (the one not in the family) and have followed him out of the family

original sin has taken ADAM & EVE out of the family of GOD
ALL WHO ARE BORN FROM THIS UNION (which is all of mankind)
is born (blind) outside of the FAMILY of GOD

WE SEE THE EVEIDENCE OF THIS IN THE NAKED STORY

They (ADAM & EVE) become aware of being Naked; but naked to who?
This nakedness is not a covering of private parts but a question of family;
as seen in the fact Adam does not run away from Eve nor does Eve run away from Adam.
They consider each other to be family but they hide from what they consider non-family.
They run and hide from God.
Mankind has left the family of God.
THIS LEAVING THE FAMILY OF GOD IS THE FIRST SIN; THE ORIGINAL SIN; THE SIN OF THE WORLD!
AGAIN; All of mankind is out of the family of God

LET US LOOK AGAIN AT THAT NEW BORN
A child comes into the world and has committed no sin themselves
WHAT ELSE CAN WE SAY ABOUT THIS CHILD?
We can also say this child who has yet to commit a sin ( if we don't count original sin) is also born "OUTSIDE the FAMILY of GOD"

IF THIS CHILD DIES WITHOUT LIVING LONG ENOUGH TO COMMIT A SIN ; ARE THEY FAMILY WITH GOD?
{ AGAIN ; WE ARE DICOUNTING ORIGINAL SIN}
with these conditions in place they may be sinless ;
but they are also outside the family of GOD;
AND ARE INCAPIBLE OF BEING KINSMAN REDEEMED

-------------------------------**** KEEP THIS IN MIND WHEN LOOKING AT
------------------------------ **** THE UN-PARDONIBLE SIN
------------------------------ **** FOR IT IS AT THE TIME WHEN WE ARE INCAPIBLE
------------------------------ **** OF BEING KINSMAN REDEEMED ["AGAIN"]
------------------------------ **** THAT MAKES IT UNPARDONIBLE

THE NEED OF THE KINSMAN REDEEMER
1- FOR THE PAYMENT OF SIN
2- FOR THE RESTORATION INTO THE FAMILY OF GOD

ORIGINAL SIN TOOK US OUT OF THE FAMILY OF GOD

Raina · « **Reply #3 on:** February 24, 2013, 07:21:12 pm »

Quote

amadeus: If our natural parents were living as devils, we probably moved along the road to sin a bit faster. If we had parents who loved God in a great measure, then the following verse could have come into play, depending on well those parents were teaching us:

"Train up a child in the way he should go: and when he is old, he will not depart from it." Prov 22:6

Well, you would think what was said above would be true, but, of course it isn't always. Sometimes, the children of less-than-ideal parents (abusive, alcoholic, drug addict, etc) determine that they will be different. Some children stand apart from what they've experienced and they promise themselves that they will never do the things their parents did.

Sometimes, children are raised in the faith by God-fearing parents, but the children still rebel and go their own way.

To assume a child will be "just like" their parents is not fair. (Not that you are . . . just saying) A child needs to be encouraged to break generational sin, and to know that they CAN do it. The pattern CAN be broken and it can begin with them.

Raina · « **Reply #4 on:** February 24, 2013, 08:12:46 pm »

Patrick,

You're not saying that if a baby dies they are not saved, are you? (she asks with her hands on her hips!)

I believe original sin is an inherited inclination toward sin. Some babies, some children will have a greater inclination than others--possibly because of genetic factors and due to temperament. But, all will eventually commit sin.

Until a child is taught right from wrong, I'm not sure they can be held accountable for "sin". Babies and very small children, I can't help but believe, belong to the Kingdom of Heaven. Perhaps as they grow older and begin to intentionally sin and be naughty they lose that automatic position and they may be fully capable of turning away from God. They will need to turn back.

Of course, this is speaking of an age of accountability. God alone would know what age that would be and I imagine it would vary from child to child.

All speculation, of course, but certainly babies and little children are saved. Who can look at a newborn and see anything but innocence?

A toddler--Haha, might be a bit of the devil has entered in. Certainly "selfishness" is one of the first sins to manifest.

Nothing worse than an evil kid, like that Damien from the movie Omen. Or those nasty children from Children of the Corn. Or how 'bout those horrid platinum blond kids from Village of the Damned?

I remember in the movie (and book) Tess of the D'Urbervilles, Tess wished for her little baby that died very young to be buried in the Christian graveyard, but the priest refused because the babe had not been baptized, except by dear Tess, herself. How terrible, I thought. Tess, when she realized the priest would not acquiesce despite her pleading, told the priest, "Then I don't like you." I would've said the same, but I would've kicked him in the shin, too.

alphaomega · « **Reply #5 on:** February 24, 2013, 08:55:14 pm »

Quote from: Raina on February 24, 2013, 08:12:46 pm

Patrick,

You're not saying that if a baby dies they are not saved, are you? (she asks with her hands on her hips!)

the babies condition of salvation is neither pro or con by this early death
* God is not required to save this child
* aborting a child does not guarantee salvation for the child
* if the fallen angels killed one of their nephilium children at birth it would not save that child

even if there exists a state of sinless (ness); the issue of loss of family of god still would exist
out of the family is still out of the family

now before the time of JESUS on the cross this was not possible and of coarse many people died
Adam to Noah to Abraham to kings to the prophets etc ; are all of these without hope?
no of coarse not , neither are they saved in any other way than we are today.

for them JESUS went into the gave for three days and preached this Gospel message to them.
for these children who have died I have no trouble seeing that they to will hear the Gospel message in the same way and those who accept this will be saved and any that don't ----won't !

remember ; they were born outside the family of God
and only through a kinsman redeemer "JESUS" can their be a restoration back into this family

Quote from: Raina on February 24, 2013, 08:12:46 pm

I believe original sin is an inherited inclination toward sin. Some babies, some children will have a greater inclination than others--possibly because of genetic factors and due to temperament. But, all will eventually commit sin.

Until a child is taught right from wrong, I'm not sure they can be held accountable for "sin". Babies and very small children, I can't help but believe, belong to the Kingdom of Heaven.

BUT are they in the family of GOD?
ADAM AND EVE left that family thus the children are not in the family either
ABRAHAM was called a friend of GOD BUT NOT FAMILY
Jesus came into the world to make sons of GOD for mankind was out of the family

also note ;
while JESUS was in his ministry several times he told someone heir sins were forgiven
and yet he still went to the cross
forgiveness of sin or dyeing so young that sin hasn't happened does not put one back into the family of God

THUS ; that need of a kinsman (family) redeemer

Quote from: Raina on February 24, 2013, 08:12:46 pm

Perhaps as they grow older and begin to intentionally sin and be naughty they lose that automatic position and they may be fully capable of turning away from God. They will need to turn back.

in my opinion it is the other way around
we start off outside the family ; we turn to Jesus as we recognize somethings wrong

like Paul
i know what is right
i know what is wrong
i try to do right
but i do wrong

who will save me ?

we seek God ; and we find Jesus
HE KINSMAN REDEEMS US
1- he pays for our sin
2- he invites into family ( with the gift of the Holy Spirit)

Of course, this is speaking of an age of accountability. God alone would know what age that would be and I imagine it would vary from child to child.

All speculation, of course, but certainly babies and little children are saved. Who can look at a newborn and see anything but innocence?

A toddler--Haha, might be a bit of the devil has entered in. Certainly "selfishness" is one of the first sins to manifest.

Nothing worse than an evil kid, like that Damien from the movie Omen. Or those nasty children from Children of the Corn. Or how 'bout those horrid platinum blond kids from Village of the Damned?

I remember in the movie (and book) Tess of the D'Urbervilles, Tess wished for her little baby that died very young to be buried in the Christian graveyard, but the priest refused because the babe had not been baptized, except by dear Tess, herself. How terrible, I thought. Tess, when she realized the priest would not acquiesce despite her pleading, told the priest, "Then I don't like you." I would've said the same, but I would've kicked him in the shin, too.

ISN'T IT WONDERFUL that the plan of GOD is not thwarted by the actions of any man towards those of whom
JESUS came and made sons of GOD

NOW ALL OF THE ABOVE OF COARSE IS IN MY OPINION
IT IS OFFERED (MY THOUGHTS) TO MY FRIENDS HERE FOR THEIR PONDERING
PLEASE FEEL FREE TO ASK MORE QUESTIONS AS WELL AS OFFER CONTRARY OPINIONS

{LOL; but watch your shins, RAINA is loose in here

}

beancounter · « **Reply #6 on:** February 24, 2013, 09:42:38 pm »

I read over the stuff, but I dont comment unless so led to do so. I am honestly not all that smart, but I am "usually" wise enough to know not to spew stuff out of my mouth when its all speculation to me. Unless of course its just in fun, but I am warry in that as well... sometimes I have spoken in fun and its been taken the wrong way. One man's junk (fun) is another man's treasure (heartfelt subject) sort of deal. That reminds me, I have found some of the coolest stuff in my days in a junk yard.... another man's junk.... or at a yard sale, etc. As to original sin, it happened in the garden of eden. But God had a plan to make it all right, and thats all I know for sure. For me, thats enough.

Raina · « **Reply #7 on:** February 24, 2013, 10:24:13 pm »

Patrick,

God is not required to do anything. But, He will always do what is right.

Aborting a child does not guarantee salvation for the child? Please, be careful who you might say that around; could seriously damage someone. An aborted baby is a victim. An innocent victim. And THAT is not speculation.

Also, keep in mind:

Quote

Matthew 19:14

New International Version (NIV)

14 Jesus said, “Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these.”

Perhaps, when it comes to babies and little children, we should just leave it at: God will always do what is right.

Raina · « **Reply #8 on:** February 24, 2013, 10:44:22 pm »

Patrick, I'm gonna have to give you lessons on how to use the quote function, I think. Could get confusing.

What you present gives me something to ponder. Need to think on this . . .

Quote

A.O. : {LOL; but watch your shins, RAINA is loose in here }

You got THAT right, bro!

The wrath of Raina is a well-known fact!

Raina · « **Reply #9 on:** February 25, 2013, 12:53:38 am »

Okay, bro. I've been chewing on this. I do understand and was intrigued by the "kinsman redeemer" concept. Details here: http://thealphatheomega.createaforum.com/bible-discussion/jesus-the-kinsman-redeemer/msg128/#msg128 Now, if I set aside for a moment my intense love of babies and fuzzy things

, I do see what you're saying concerning "out of the family" and going "into the family." And, it fits in with God desiring a family for Himself.

So, Jesus is the perfect one to "kinsman redeem" anyone who will come to Him, but not all will do so. Through Him we receive forgiveness; he "ransoms" us.

However, I can see that the salvation of Christ becomes very exclusive. Only those who come to Him are saved; only those ransomed; only those forgiven through Him--only those in the family. This exclusivity is something many will balk at. And, again, my emotions get in the way as I think of "all those poor unsaved people." But, I suppose it is a matter of trusting God to do what is right. He knows His own. And salvation is open to all. But not all will be saved. I think this is biblical.

I need to study over the "kinsman redeemer" thread again. But not tonight. I need to be in bed forty minutes ago.

Question, Patrick: In your opinion (of course), if a child belonging to parents who have chosen Christ were to die, would that child automatically be saved because the child would be "in the family" (because the child's parents are "in the family")?

alphaomega · « **Reply #10 on:** February 25, 2013, 05:06:37 am »

Quote from: Raina on February 25, 2013, 12:53:38 am

Question, Patrick: In your opinion (of course), if a child belonging to parents who have chosen Christ were to die, would that child automatically be saved because the child would be "in the family" (because the child's parents are "in the family")?

i understand the difficult here ; but I am going to ask you to consider this scene......

JESUS is in the center of the street and the children are around him.
ok; what do you see ?

are you still worried?

I am not ; were i worry about the adults in this world only being the few who get it
the scene with the children ( though it may not be automatic ; they surely seem to be the many who get it )

how many kids in that scene do you see running away from Jesus ?
i didn't see any in my minds eye

see my point ?

Edwin. · « **Reply #11 on:** February 26, 2013, 07:05:04 am »

alphaomega.

You ask,

How did we get it ?

As a result of deception, see,

1Ti 2:14 and Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor.

Would Eve have partaken of the forbidden fruit if she had not been deceived ?

alphaomega · « **Reply #12 on:** February 26, 2013, 03:51:44 pm »

Quote from: Edwin. on February 26, 2013, 07:05:04 am

alphaomega.

You ask,

How did we get it ?

As a result of deception, see,

1Ti 2:14 and Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor.

Would Eve have partaken of the forbidden fruit if she had not been deceived ?

you are looking at Eve as being a different person than Adam ---right?
IF I PICK UP A BALL with my right hand ; did i pick up the ball ?

think of God and Jesus here
ARE THEY ONE ? or do we say they are like one ; based upon a oneness we today think we can achieve?

we say we are one with our wives ; but are we ?
this is not the case however with Adam and Eve.

THEY ARE ONE ; split apart into two vessels

if eve is decieved ; or picks up a ball
isnt adam decieved ; or has the ball the is picked up?

it is only in the very short past
that we have moved away from the understanding of

mr and mrs as one
and the words of the marriage
"let me present to you--- mr & mrs john smith "

we today say Eve was decieved as if this action didn't effect Adam

WE TODAY who are not like Adam & Eve ( did your spouse come out of you ? ) judge the consequences seen here as -if we are the same ; but we are not

how did we get it ?
through the soul of Adam
WHERE DID EVE GET HER SOUL?
through Adam
WHERE DID YOU GET YOUR SOUL?
through your father who got it from his father all the way back to Adam

your statement should read ;
Would ~~Eve~~ADAM have partaken of the forbidden fruit if s he had not been deceived ?

HOW WE GET IT...... is the method by which this sin is tranfered to use
AND THAT METHOD IS THE SAME WAY WE GET OUR SOUL
AND THAT IS THROUGH ADAM

ok; does that make sence ?

don't be shy ; fire back
the goal of this forum is to be able to bring our thoughts forwards and into the open
as we all are in quest of exploring the issues

alphaomega · « **Reply #13 on:** February 26, 2013, 05:15:13 pm »

Quote from: Edwin. on February 26, 2013, 04:35:22 pm

alphaomega.

I asked the question,

Would Eve have partaken of the forbidden fruit if she had not been deceived ?

There are only three possible answers.

1. I don't know.

2. Yes.

3. No.

Let me have your answer, so that I may comment thereon.

Thank you.

Edwin.

it is a bad question
thus my answer

i reject the premice of only three possible answers

but if push come to shove

i will give you my answer

ADAM (through his Eve personage) became decieved as she sought to "join in " with the supossed conversation between satan and GOD ( THOUGH Satans conversation is one-side and does not include GOD talking with Satan) SO THAT SHE COULD GO BACK TO MANKIND (ADAM) and tell him of what is being said between God and satan SHE IS THE PROTOTYPE OF WHAT A PONTIFUS MAXIMUS IS ; that go-between of heavenly conversations and then being the only source for revieling them to mankind. EVE's sin is that of joining non family (satan ; the stranger) to family matters. Eve is decieved as to what this joining implies ad how it will effect the family relationship.

Would Eve have partaken of the forbidden fruit if she had not been deceived ?
it wasn't the fruit eve sought ; but the being like god and satan ;joining in to the conversation of family and non family ;
the eating of the fruit just becomes the method or test of her intentions

Eve is decieved ; but then like it is an error on the thrid baseman if his left hand (glove side) misses the ball (Adam) or he his right hand (Eve) throws the ball over the first baseman the error is charge to the thrid baseman ( Adam)

ADAM OR EVE ; is not the issue here ; for Adam and Eve are one

I KNOW YOU DON'T LIKE THE ANSWER ;
but it is my answer

alphaomega · « **Reply #14 on:** February 26, 2013, 06:30:56 pm »

Quote from: Edwin. on February 26, 2013, 07:05:04 am

alphaomega.

You ask,

How did we get it ?

As a result of deception, see,

1Ti 2:14 and Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor.

Would Eve have partaken of the forbidden fruit if she had not been deceived ?

LOL; I DON'T take to being put into corners
so please just go ahead with your point

just say what you mean ; i will follow and ask questions as we go

---ok?

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Author Topic: original sin (Read 182 times)

alphaomega

original sin

Amadeus

Re: original sin

alphaomega

Re: original sin

Raina

Re: original sin

Raina

Re: original sin

alphaomega

Re: original sin

beancounter

Re: original sin

Raina

Re: original sin

Raina

Re: original sin

Raina

Re: original sin

alphaomega

Re: original sin

Edwin.

Re: original sin

alphaomega

Re: original sin

alphaomega

Re: original sin

alphaomega

Re: original sin