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Messages - Amadeus

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Theology / Re: original sin
« on: March 13, 2013, 11:31:42 pm »
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alphaomega: let us examine the issue

Original sin;
What is it?

We can call it "original" but doesn't that simply mean that it is the "first", the first time a man opposed God, or pulled himself away from God, or sinned? The phrase "original sin" is not scriptural at least not in the KJV. Adam and Even did displease God, but none of their children were born sinners. They did not know how to do anything else, so they sinned. We all did, but we were not born sinners. We were not born with an "original sin". We were perhaps as you say born outside of the family and therefore were unable to do anything initially but sin. We were dead so what else could be expected? Pleasing God did not come naturally to us, but sinning did. It was and is the way of man.

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More importantly how is it transferred to us?

I do not believe that it is... transferred to us, that is:

"Yet say ye, Why? doth not the son bear the iniquity of the father? When the son hath done that which is lawful and right, and hath kept all my statutes, and hath done them, he shall surely live.

The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him." Ezek 18:19-20
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Does it affect us today?


We are affected by the sin of the first man Adam because being separated from God, being out of communication with God, being dead and we did not know how NOT to sin. We have followed the lead of our flesh and it always, when followed, will lead us to sin, repeatedly until.... but I won't get into that here.
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While thinking on this; many will tell you “MARY” the mother of JESUS was not born with original sin.
Again to see if this is true or not we will need to answer the first three questions.

God breathed into Adam the image of god; the soul of Adam and he became a living being.
Did God breathe into Eve?

Eve got her soul from Adam.


She did, but if the two of them sinned it is not because one of them came out of the other. It is because each one of them disobeyed God. I repeat, while some things are certainly inherited, sin is not one of them, IMHO.
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Where do we get our soul?
The same place as Eve; the soul for each person is passed on from Adam whom God breathed it into to.

But... each soul of each person is a distinct individual soul. It is not the soul of the father nor is it the soul of the mother, IMHO.  It was however dead until Jesus made Life possible.

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The soul that sinnith.   

with the sin of Adam the soul has been tarnished
that tarnished soul is tranfered down to each person born

We inherited a way of doing things without God. Only if when we came to God in some measure  did we learn a different way of doing things. Remember that God alone is "good" (Matt 19:17), so when any person does anything good or is taught anything that is really "good" in the eyes of God, the source of it must always be the only "good" or God. We are not tarnished without God. We are nothing without God. We are not evil without God. We are nothing, but when we sin, we move to less than nothing. A person who is nothing and has done nothing deserves not punishment. A person who is less than nothing deserves to be punished. Remember Paul's writing:

"For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;" Rom 3:23

We sinned and for that we deserve punishment not for what our parents did or did not do.

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where do we get our soul? each of us gets his soul from his father
and this traces back to the father of mankind ( Adam)
who has tranfered this tarnished soul along to us.

Were we as innocent babies really dirty black sinners? We were certainly dead to God, but not sinners... at the first.

Why did Jesus say, "...Suffer the little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God.  Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child, he shall not enter therein." Mark 10:14-15

Nathaniel was apparently that way... as a child ...when Jesus first saw him:

"Jesus saw Nathanael coming to him, and saith of him, Behold an Israelite indeed, in whom is no guile!" John 1:47

Guile = deceit, craftiness
 
Our souls were, IMHO, effectively empty of "guile" until we started to fill them with whatever we consumed... the evil things of man or the good things of God. We were little children so we were as little children. Nathaniel was that way, but no small child. You and I, if we were physical adults, were also that way in a measure. We were desirous of repenting or as John the Baptist worded it, we had: "fruits meet for repentance" (Matt 3:8.)

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How then is JESUS uneffected by this original sin ?

He was affected by the same things as you and I, the same temptations: 

"For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin." Heb 4:15

The difference between Jesus and us was that Jesus started out with two advantages. He had the Holy Spirit of God and the Word of God within from Mary's womb. No one else started with those advantages. By the time any of us had heard or read the Word of God and had received the Holy Spirit of God, we already had a history of the ways of man and our own sins behind us. Jesus had no such history because the advantages made possible that which is impossible for carnal man alone... He was able to and did overcome sin and the temptations which would lead to sin. The tools have provided to allow to do the same, but we have a lot of our own history fighting against and quite often we do not realize that that is the problem so we have not turned it also over to Jesus. We have formed bad habits, the ways of man, which until they are eliminated will cause us to sin the same sins repeatedly.

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JESUS is not fathered by a human;

Yes.
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THUS his soul is not that of mankind.

No, being fathered by God gave him the advantages I mentioned, but he was not immune to sin. He could have sinned, but did not. If he was unable to sin then there was no temptation. Both the writer of Hebrews (cited above) and the writers of gospels when they tell of the 40 days temptation indicate that Jesus was tempted. He could have sinned, but did not.
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Jesus is kin to mankind by his body.

Yes.

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SINCE WE HAVE A SOUL WE ALSO HAVE THE SIN OF THE WORLD

The WORLD is you and me. You have your world and I have my world. Our world is our carnality and our being. Our carnality and our being without the gift of God is death. Until we need Life (Jesus) and receive Him, we are dead. Jesus also had his carnality but having the Word and the Spirit He was never dead. Nevertheless , his desire of the flesh and the eye and the pride of life, worked on him tempting him to sin. They failed...
 
"...In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world." John 16:33

If Jesus had overcome this outside place and all of those things which could tempt a man, we would have no fight and we would have no tribulation. He said we would have tribulation because Jesus overcame his world and made it possible for us to overcome our worlds. Within our worlds we shall have tribulation, but God because Jesus paid the price and became the Door for us via the Word of God and the Holy Spirit and the sacrifice so that we also would be able to do that which was is impossible for carnal man alone. Adam killed himself and us as well. We could nothing else but sin, until Jesus provide to the means to NOT sin any more.

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John 1:29
The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.
The singular sin; is the first one; it is original sin.

He took away the possibility of sin in himself by overcoming all of the temptations in his world and making it possible for others to do the same, one world at the time.


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Theology / Re: why was the devil created ?
« on: February 28, 2013, 09:36:03 pm »
My own clue to my answer may be found in just who exactly it is that we believe that the devil is? Was he not Peter? Was he not Judas Iscariot? Was he not the father of those who opposed Jesus?

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Theology / Re: original sin
« on: February 23, 2013, 06:27:24 pm »
I probably don't know the definitions provided by mainstream churches, but they may certainly included in some cases an inherited sin, the sin of our first natural parents (Adam & Eve of Genesis). If by that it is meant that when we were born to out mothers we already had the one sin, I disagree. What I believe happened is the wrong door was opened and the right one was closed. Jesus made it possible for that to be changed by His sacrifice and by Himself becoming for us the right Door.

Because the wrong door was open from the one moment we began to absorb anything and think and decide anything, we learned from the things within that open wrong door: the tree of good and evil. We learned to be ashamed. We learned to sin because that was now the natural way of men. Men were not born with sin, but they were born with the way to sin open before them and quite attrractive. He was born with something that pulled him or drew in the direction of sin:

"For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world." I John 2:16

Those mentioned lusts and pride are not in themselves sin. They are, however, whenever they are followed, the pathways to sin. (Until we get rid of them, we will find ourselves repeatedly sinning after we have received the gift of Holy Ghost... because we continue to walk along those pathways.) We were born with these attractions in our innocence and we developed them with the help of those around us who influenced us. If our natural parents were living as devils, we probably moved along the road to sin a bit faster. If we had parents who loved God in a great measure, then the following verse could have come into play, depending on well those parents were teaching us:

"Train up a child in the way he should go: and when he is old, he will not depart from it." Prov 22:6

I would not say that we were born already being sinners, but we were certainly born to sin. We had from the start access to the wrong tree and we have continuously eaten fruit from it. Jesus has given us a way out of that inclination to death. He have given us access anew to that other better tree... if we will learn to eat from it rather than the other. We now have the same choices that the first Adam and Eve had insofar as which tree to eat from... After their disobedience, of course, they lost access to the Tree of LIfe. Losing access is not something we want to contemplate. It happened to them and it can certainly happen to us....

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Bible Discussion / Re: what is the place of the books of the bible after the gospels ?
« on: February 23, 2013, 05:59:26 pm »
Whether I received this thought through another or it was something the Lord gave me directly I cannot recall, but it relates to the "Acts of the Apostles" (the Book of Acts). What I have is a cross reference to the following verse, which you may see by reading it:

"One generation shall praise thy works to another, and shall declare thy mighty acts." Psalm 145:4

My thought is that what is written in the Book of Acts is unfinished. The Acts of people following and obeying God, especially since the outpouring of the Holy Ghost (Acts 2) continues. One generation apparently enacted the things written in that book, but since then others throughout the entire 2000 year period have continued "acting" out new things as they have followed and obeyed God.

John wrote the following words about Jesus... "And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written. Amen" John 21:25... but people of God continue to LIVE a LIVING Book of Acts. Those people could or should include you and me and every person on this forum and/or on Praise Him as well. The Book of the Acts of the Apostles... and other people of God... continues to be written by the lives of those who continue to do His work.

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General Discussions / Re: On Interpreting the Bible
« on: February 23, 2013, 02:57:48 pm »
As I keep on reading your posts my understanding of them is improving. I saw some good things, IMHO, in the above post. I will keep on reading what you write, AO, and hopefully the Lord will help me to see more fully what you are already seeing. Probably a lot of what you see overlaps some of what I see.

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Bible Discussion / Re: AN OVERLOOKED STORY FROM THE BOOK OF ACTS
« on: February 23, 2013, 02:39:01 pm »
I just came over to your forum in response to Raina's request to do so and read this post. It strikes some chords in me that require further consideration. Not immediately, for my mind is tired, but I will come later and try it again. I haven't completely understood what I have read, but enough to wonder on it a bit. Thanks AO!

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Spiritual Interpretations / Re: Feed My Sheep
« on: November 28, 2012, 06:31:08 pm »
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John, my friend, I've been angry at others and even myself for a while now. I'm over it. I withdrew myself for a while but now I feel the Lord moving in me and have that need to do the will of God. I missed you brother.

You were also missed, my friend!

I understand very well about the pressure on us at times, which makes us want to draw back. I also understand how frustrating it seems when so many people either do not care or completely misunderstand what is meant.

Just remember what Jesus said here:

"Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do. And they parted his raiment, and cast lots." Luke 23:34

They did not know and did not understand what they were doing.

Some of those, who are seemingly uncaring or even cruelly callous and abrasive with regard to what we say, are likely among some of those, who "know not what they do". We must do as Jesus did and ask our Father to forgive them.

And then again:

"And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose." Rom 8:28

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Spiritual Interpretations / Re: Feed My Sheep
« on: November 24, 2012, 09:17:28 am »
Thank you for sharing both the Word and that heart warming testimony with us Colin!

"I will lift up mine eyes unto the hills, from whence cometh my help.

My help cometh from the LORD, which made heaven and earth." Psalm 121:1-2

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Bible Discussion / Proverbs 1 Hmmm
« on: November 24, 2012, 08:51:53 am »

"The proverbs of Solomon the son of David, king of Israel;

To know wisdom and instruction; to perceive the words of understanding;

To receive the instruction of wisdom, justice, and judgment, and equity;

To give subtlety to the simple, to the young man knowledge and discretion.

A wise man will hear, and will increase learning; and a man of understanding shall attain unto wise counsels:

To understand a proverb, and the interpretation; the words of the wise, and their dark sayings.

The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge: but fools despise wisdom and instruction.

My son, hear the instruction of thy father, and forsake not the law of thy mother:

For they shall be an ornament of grace unto thy head, and chains about thy neck." Prov 1:1-9

"The proverbs of Solomon the son of David, king of Israel;"Prov 1:1
Why Solomon? Jesus said, "...behold, a greater than Solomon is here." Matt 12:42. Indeed, we probably all accept this... that Jesus is greater than Solomon. Yet, here in the OT we find the insight of the Holy Ghost invested in the written proverbs of who? Solomon!

Who was this man? He was was the richest and the wisest man, but according to scripture, he apparently missed the last boat:

"For it came to pass, when Solomon was old, that his wives turned away his heart after other gods: and his heart was not perfect with the LORD his God, as was the heart of David his father.

For Solomon went after Ashtoreth the goddess of the Zidonians, and after Milcom the abomination of the Ammonites.

And Solomon did evil in the sight of the LORD, and went not fully after the LORD, as did David his father." I Kings 11:4-6

So how and why would God use Solomon to instruct you and me?

"To know wisdom and instruction; to perceive the words of understanding;" Prov 1:2

Must not somehow come to recognize and know the ways of our own flesh so as to not do what Solomon did? We must do better, but how can we do better than this wisest of men, if not by following one "greater than Solomon"? Is this not wisdom and instruction? Is this not perception by and through the Holy Ghost?

"To receive the instruction of wisdom, justice, and judgment, and equity;" Prov 1:3

Did not Solomon known and practice these things so as to be very great? Jesus also said this:

"...He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do..." John 14:12

Solomon may be excused because he did not have what we have. Did not Jesus, in effect, state that believers would do greater than he that was greater than Solomon?

Jesus did not only receive instruction in wisdom, justice, judgment and equity. Were not those things a part of him? Scripture says that Jesus grew, but it was not, I believe, in these things. As the Word made flesh, was not his growth rather in steady and continuous overcoming of all of the ways of man, which tempted him making him want to sin? How could he overcome so completely all of these things without already having the wisdom, justice, judgment and equity from and/or of God?

His was in him! Doesn't ours need to be written in us? Hmmm... The Holy Ghost!

"To give subtlety to the simple, to the young man knowledge and discretion." Prov 1:4

Simplicity and youth in the way of the flesh is not the thing here. Oh, it may well be applied in the ways of man, for certainly Solomon was a master, but a master in those ways misses a more important thing, I believe.

A man can be 60 years old in his flesh, when he comes to the simplicity and knowledge and discretion that God holds out now for whosoever will? Natural wrinkles and age spots aside, the very old carnal man may have within the subtlety of the simple as well as the knowledge and discretion of the young man in the Lord!

"That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish." Eph 5:27

"And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven." John 18:3-4

Where are we coming from and where are we going? Are we not led by the Holy Spirit?

"The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit." John 3:8

"A wise man will hear, and will increase learning; and a man of understanding shall attain unto wise counsels:" Prov 1:7

"He that hath ears to hear, let him hear." Matt 11:15

"To understand a proverb, and the interpretation; the words of the wise, and their dark sayings." Prov 1:6

"Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand." Matt 13:13

"But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God." I Cor 14:28

"The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge: but fools despise wisdom and instruction." Prov 1:7

"The fear of the LORD is to hate evil: pride, and arrogancy, and the evil way, and the froward mouth, do I hate." Prov 8:13

"My son, hear the instruction of thy father, and forsake not the law of thy mother:" Prov 1:8

And who then is our father? Is he not THE FATHER, the God who created us? If not, why not?

And who then is our mother? Is she not THE CHURCH, which gave birth to us anew through the power of the Holy Ghost?

"For they shall be an ornament of grace unto thy head, and chains about thy neck." Prov 1:9

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Introductions / Re: Welcome to Colin
« on: November 20, 2012, 06:20:56 pm »
Welcome, Colin, old friend!

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Bible Discussion / Re: Heaven/Revelation21-22
« on: November 17, 2012, 10:46:13 am »
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THIS HAS BEEN DEBATED THROUGH THE POST-JESUS ERA ;
imo---- on is on ; ( saved is saved)

Yes, God saved me from a violent automobile collision the other day, but today is another day. From every day and every situation, which would move us away from God, we must be saved. I was saved yesterday. I have been saved today. If there is a tomorrow, I can also be saved tomorrow.

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the only points of merrit to dispose this postion comes from the books of romans to jude ;
and "THUS; one must accept these books as "knowing absolutly ---what is"
a carefull study shows that is not the case
example ;
paul vs james
many people say they agree ; and the writing in scripture "clearly" shows they don't agree
THUS' that know it all position is "clearly not absolute"

my point

CAN A PEARL TURN BACK INTO SAND?

Actually it is a bit more troubling than that:

The following is an Internet response to someone's question about pearls apparently "melting" in vinegar:

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A pearl is mostly calcium carbonate, which is susceptible to even a weak acid solution. The crystals of calcium carbonate are converted by acetic acid (vinegar) into calcium, which dissolves in the residual water, and carbonate that effervesces as bubbles of carbon dioxide, the formula for which is CaCO3 + CH3COOH --> Ca + H2O + CO2.

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AlphaO: in the parable of the pearl of great price we see the traveler taking the pearl to his fathers house; he does not take land or even sand.

i would say that your examples of carnal man and spiritual man are not clearly seen to be true ; or that they are not part of the biblical story's intended message.

Paul calls them the "old man" and the "new" or "inner man". John the Baptist ssaid, "He must increase, but I must decrease."[John 3:30], the one increasing was the "new man" and the one decreasing was the "old man". The new man is that "built without hands".

The old man is the carnal, the corruptible. The new man is the Spiritual (not of wrong spirits, but of the Holy Spirit), the incorruptible. Simplified, this is my take on it.

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AlphaO: when i hear this i see; the sand turning into a pearl and then back into sand!
i sermize this to mean that you ( the world) are seeing this as "the flesh of mankind" where-as i see the pearl being that which is separated apart from the flesh

Not back into sand, but even less, or perhaps, better said, worse than sand. Sand is, or can be cleaned. 

"When the unclean spirit is gone out of a man, he walketh through dry places, seeking rest, and findeth none.

Then he saith, I will return into my house from whence I came out; and when he is come, he findeth it empty, swept, and garnished.

Then goeth he, and taketh with himself seven other spirits more wicked than himself, and they enter in and dwell there: and the last state of that man is worse than the first. Even so shall it be also unto this wicked generation." Matt 12:43-45

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AlphaO: try this;
you see me in a car drive by and you say
"there goes patrick"
and that would be true
HOWEVER ;
LATER YOU SAW ME WALKING DOWN THE STREET ;
and again you say
"there goes patrick "

and so we see ; i am ( with or without my vehicle )
i am ; (with or without my flesh)

Yes, but the old "I am" is corruptible and corrupted. This is why a new temple (a new "I am") is needed and we cannot build it with our "hands"

"So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:

It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:

It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit." I
Cor 15:42-45

So it was with Jesus and so is the promise to us. We must put off the "old man" and put on the "new". We must be changed from a corruptible thing that kills to an incorruptible thing that brings to Life!

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AlphO: now delving deeper ;
jesus washes my car

jesus washes the "land" off of me
as seen as when he washes the disciples feet

Our own land is corrupted by poor usage. So it is with a farmer's field that he repeatedly abuses by failing to rotate crops, by failing to fertilize, or otherwise properly care for the land. (We are to be good stewards.) Eventually, the yield of that field will be poor to none.

The "land" washed off is that which we have brushed against when we received the lies of men or the bribes of men or the mammon of men. They offered it and we took it even though it was contaminated. It looked good, but underneath it was rotten. It needs to be cleaned off, so we can see what we really have and what we do not.

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he told them ; "those who are clean <-----------!!!"
need "only" have their feet washed

those who are not clean ; washing the feet does them no-good!!!

We must walk to better places in God. The better places will cleanse us more deeply. They will remove also the things within us, which are not sin, but are men's ways, which when followed will lead us to sin repeatedly. A man who truly repents has the sin removed, but the ways of men remain. This is why he will sin again, until and if the ways of men are all removed.

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this washing isn't cleaning them ;
it is removing the flesh

before reaching heaven

land / sand ; doesn't go to heaven
my car doesn't go to heaven
the "works" of my car ; don't go to heaven

And man doesn't go to heaven. Heaven comes to him IF he has become an acceptable place for God to dwell. Jesus had no place to lie his head, but now he does.  He and his Father dwell in overcomers. Jesus became the Door for men to become overcomers, but the outer court is not the most Holy Place. The place where the Father dwells is beyond even the Holy Place in the  Holiest of Holies.

Jesus is in his Father and his Father is in him. And we... in outer darkness or the Holies of Holies?

"And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are." John 17:11

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land ; all of mankind
sand; mankind that comes from abraham
****; this includes the alien who lives among ; for they are counted as native born

both ; body and soul

But all of men of mankind are lumped together. They cling together and build their towers of Babel together and become ever more confused in the eyes of God as they continue to follow their own ways or follow the ways of other men.

God calls individual pieces of land out of the conglomerate confused mess of men, if they will hear Him and if they will obey Him.

When they come out and they begin to move toward Him, He moves toward them, building through His Son, Jesus a place where He can dwell, where His Son can lay his head. As the individual pieces of land a built anew (born again or from above), come ALIVE as the Body of Christ (the Head leading and directing) then the Bride of Christ (the new Adam's rib, if you will) in which there is no flaw, no blemish, no wrinkle, or any such  thing is taken out of it.

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AlphO: pearls ; some else entirely
*****; that re-born ; "new creation"

not body & soul but now soul and HOLY SPIRIT <---PEARL

The new creation is not intended to be simply a "new creation" as a separate unit, but eventually a part of the Body of Christ, and even hopefully a part of the Bride of Christ. But... don't put pearls in vinegar or other acids before they have been properly placed!

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Bible Discussion / Re: Heaven/Revelation21-22
« on: November 17, 2012, 09:20:48 am »
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For thou wilt light my candle: the LORD my God will enlighten my darkness." Ps 18:28

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what is this darkness that David speaks of here? ; is it not the darkness david is born into and from ?
The darkness of this world is the fallen angels and their deception imposed upon mankind.

The darkness is certainly that of fallen angels, but it is also, and perhaps more to the point, a lacking of the love, which is God. Not only David, but every man is born into darkness and is derived from darkness. Yet, there is love (God's love or light) although only a minute amount in every man born of woman (John 1:9). Do not even some of the worst heathens love their children? The deception lies in the presumption that man alone can really love as God loves, can work better than God can work, or that God is not even in the equation.

Remember the first two sons of Aaron who offered strange fire? That was a bit of their own fire, or light, but God rejected it. We must offer ourselves completely (Rom 12:1) and then will He accept our tiny offering and then we can be increased, 30, 60 or even 100 fold. We cannot come to God as if we are something already. He knows better than we do exactly what we are and what we are not. Praise His name!

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Does this darkness begin in Gen 1 or Gen 3? When was it that messengers (angels) began imposing their deception upon mankind? Haven't they always been doing it, beginning in the garden of Eden (Gen 3) up until the present day?

Which is the beginning of darkness? Gen 1 or Gen 3?


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AlphaO: the darkness that david speaks of ................
this darkness is the separating from "GOD'S" family is the influenece of the fallen angels.REMEMBER; they {the fallen} are from that darkness {heavens} and not from light {the world}
DARKNESS BEGINS in heaven; however the influence upon man begins at the"tree"

I agree that darkness may begin in a heaven, in the sense that a heaven is in a carnal man. This is not God's heaven. This is man's deception, which he may call heaven, or some other positive name. I do not believe that it, in the eyes of God, is heaven nor is it, in His eyes, positive.

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AlphaO: WE SEE ; in the new testament the references to whose family mankind is in

John 8:44 New King James Version (NKJV)
 
44 You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own resources, for he is a liar and the father of it.

So then is not their father, the devil, the 1st man Adam, who by his disobedience killed himself and all of his descendants? The only other Father is God. God was Adam's Father until he was disinherited. He was removed from the garden and forbidden access to Life as were all of his descendants.
============================================

is thier father the devil "adam" ?
no; adam becomes the conduit for the fallen seeking "a way back into heaven"

Before looking at your next statements about satan, I must insert a few thoughts on satan. Where from is this satan? Is he a creature? That is, was he created? Were not all creatures created by God? So when was this separate creature created? Satan is apparently not "very good" so seemingly he was not created prior to Gen. 1:31, which calls all of God’s creation "very good".  Yet, then, lo and behold, in Gen. 3, the serpent called satan (Rev 12:9) comes on the scene. Was this satan created by someone or something other than God? Surely this satan could not be called "very good"!

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AlphaO: SATAN KNOWS ; mankind will be called into heaven
SATAN KNOWS ; he can't control /gain access to eternal heaven without something changing
and that change requiires that access that will be aforded to mankind { later}
GOD was ADAM'S FATHER {and family} until adam & eve left the family ....
but the issue becomes which family are the "children" from?
having left the family of "light" {the family of GOD} then are not the "children" from this family of darkness?

The word "adam" simply means "man". There was a first man, of course.

How does this supposedly separate creature (satan) KNOW anything? Where did he get this knowledge? Is there any knowledge anywhere, which ultimately does not come from God? I agree that Adam (mankind) was disinherited. He became in effect a bastard. All of the natural descendants were from the 1st man Adam. He was their father now, the devil, the satan, the adversary, the source of "new" darkness. Man (every man) was given the ability (by God) to disobey God, to do things that would not please God. When man did things this way he made "dark things". He made more darkness. To God this was simply death. There was no Life in the things man made which did not please God.

Yes, all mankind was of and in the family of darkness. However, even in the beginning, God did not leave man with no hope. He speaks of hope continuously throughout scripture begininng after that first described disobedience. In the following verse we see very early on that some took hold of the hope given by God to men:

"And to Seth, to him also there was born a son; and he called his name Enos: then began men to call upon the name of the LORD." Gen 4:26

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AlphaO:

AND

Matthew 16:23 New King James Version (NKJV)
 
23 But He turned and said to Peter, “Get behind Me, Satan! You are an offense to Me, for you are not mindful of the things of God, but the things of men.”
SHOWING MANKIND NOT IN THE FAMILY OF GOD ;
and being fathered by Satan and those from darkness ; the fallen angels


But... angels must be messengers, whether bringing good tidings (Gabriel to Mary) or evil tidings (a soldier to Eli the high priest at the death of 2 sons and the taking of the tabernacle of God). 

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AlphaO:

THUS WE SEE
John 8:19 New King James Version (NKJV)

19 Then they said to Him, “Where is Your Father?”

Jesus answered, “You know neither Me nor My Father. If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also.”

A DIFFERENCE IN FAMILY BETWEEN JESUS AND THESE OF MANKIND HERE

AND THEN
Matthew 23:9
New King James Version (NKJV)

9 Do not call anyone on earth your father; for One is your Father, He who is in heaven.
THOSE WHO ARE BROUGHT TO LIFE BY A HUMAN FATHER ARE IN DARKNESS ; BUT THOSE WHO HAVE DIED TO THEMSELVES AND ACCEPTED CHRIST HAVE BECOME A NEW CREATION{brought to life eternal}  FATHERED BY GOD .

Yes, a human father starting with the 1st man Adam. And such were we also until (and if) we were "born again".

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Where was man created? Was it a place of light or darkness?

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AlphaO:
ADAM was created in a world of LIGHT; and EVE WAS CREATED from within ADAM 
He certainly moved into darkness after the fall
EXACTLY; and all of mankind who follow ; all who are born {born blind} are fathered by this action; born from the actions of the darkness

Agreed!

13
Bible Discussion / Re: Heaven/Revelation21-22
« on: November 12, 2012, 07:06:48 pm »
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#1; will we progress "no" it is not a matter of progression ; it is an on-off switch we either are or are not .
when we are saved; the job is done .
or to illistrated the faucet has been turned on and in time the water will reach us ; we do nothing to assit the water it will reach us without any help from us . when we reach the end of our life here on earth ( the water has reached us ) and we are no longer "effected" by the darkness that fell into our world. FOR ALL OF MANKIND at that time we are either forever in darkness or light {thats the on-off part}

What I see is a temporary period when a man can be a mixture of good and evil. This is the double-minded man mentioned by James and probably by Paul as well. As James says it "ought not be", but it was then and it is now. Eventually, we must be either completely "ON" or completely "OFF" as you say. When we are finally "saved" then the job is completely done. The faucet is "ON" and will not be turned off again, or vice versa.

We are affected by darkness when we look to one side, or the other, or back, while we are on the highway of holiness and dwell on what see instead of immediately rejecting and refocusing our eyes on the goal.

Can a man be found continuously in the "ON" position prior to natural death? I have not doubt of it.

Presently, however, there are undoubtedly some, maybe many, who have some switches “ON” and some switched “OFF”.  The goal, of course, should be to have all switches in the “ON” position. Mixtures, in the end of the matter, in this regard, are lukewarm, which God spues out of His mouth.

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#2; the answer is both darkness {angels fell from darkness and mankind {adam} joined with them. **** remember eve is just a part of adam.

"Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is." I John 3:2

now that we are sons of god

Are we really sons of God now? Or are we rather in the womb or in the birth canal wanting to move out into the Light?
 
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this shows that there was a time when we were not sons of god !

if we where once not sons of god ; whose sons where we of?
again; Satan get behind me and your father the devil speaks to this!

Like Peter in Matt 16, if we still sin at all, then we are moving back and forth between being an adversary (satan) of God and being hearers of God.

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JESUS came into this world to restore this lost family
THE METHOD FOR THIS IS SEEN ;in the old testament story of the kinsman redeemer
as BOAZ gets the wife { bride of christ} whereas the child goes back to the first husband { child of god}
THIS IS WHAT makes the now that we are sons of god.
THERE IS NO SONS OF GOD ; until there is an acceptance of {JESUS} a kinsman redeemer .

So then if we are "sons of God" now, are we not regularly being chastised by our Father (Heb 12:6-8)?
 
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========================
man belonged in the light ; {earth}
the angels in darkness ; {heaven}

--------------------------------- when the heavens pass away ; do not the angels of heaven live in the new heaven which was created for man?
do not the birds of the air live in the tree? ( see nebacannessor dream)

The heavens I see done away with are those that like unto sinful men who formed them. The truly heavenly angels are with God and have always been with God. They do not and never have sinned. IMHO. )

 
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note ; some of the type i raised the font size and or bolded
it is sometimes hard for me to see ; is that ok with you?
OK!

14
Bible Discussion / Re: Heaven/Revelation21-22
« on: November 11, 2012, 08:20:46 pm »
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For thou wilt light my candle: the LORD my God will enlighten my darkness." Ps 18:28

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what is this darkness that David speaks of here? ; is it not the darkness david is born into and from ?
The darkness of this world is the fallen angels and their deception imposed upon mankind.

Does this darkness begin in Gen 1 or Gen 3? When was it that messengers (angels) began imposing their deception upon mankind? Haven't they always been doing it, beginning in the garden of Eden (Gen 3) up until the present day?

Which is the beginning of darkness? Gen 1 or Gen 3?

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WE SEE ; in the new testament the references to whose family mankind is in

John 8:44 New King James Version (NKJV)
 
44 You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own resources, for he is a liar and the father of it.

So then is not their father, the devil, the 1st man Adam, who by his disobedience killed himself and all of his descendants? The only other Father is God. God was Adam's Father until he was disinherited. He was removed from the garden and forbidden access to Life as were all of his descendants.

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AND

Matthew 16:23 New King James Version (NKJV)
 
23 But He turned and said to Peter, “Get behind Me, Satan! You are an offense to Me, for you are not mindful of the things of God, but the things of men.”
SHOWING MANKIND NOT IN THE FAMILY OF GOD ;
and being fathered by Satan and those from darkness ; the fallen angels

But... angels must be messengers, whether bringing good tidings (Gabriel to Mary) or evil tidings (a soldier to Eli the high priest at the death of 2 sons and the taking of the tabernacle of God). 

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THUS WE SEE
John 8:19 New King James Version (NKJV)

19 Then they said to Him, “Where is Your Father?”

Jesus answered, “You know neither Me nor My Father. If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also.”

A DIFFERENCE IN FAMILY BETWEEN JESUS AND THESE OF MANKIND HERE

AND THEN
Matthew 23:9
New King James Version (NKJV)

9 Do not call anyone on earth your father; for One is your Father, He who is in heaven.
THOSE WHO ARE BROUGHT TO LIFE BY A HUMAN FATHER ARE IN DARKNESS ; BUT THOSE WHO HAVE DIED TO THEMSELVES AND ACCEPTED CHRIST HAVE BECOME A NEW CREATION{brought to life eternal}  FATHERED BY GOD .

Yes, a human father starting with the 1st man Adam. And such were we also until (and if) we were "born again".


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Where was man created? Was it a place of light or darkness? .

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ADAM was created in a world of LIGHT; and EVE WAS CREATED from within ADAM 
He certainly moved into darkness after the fall
EXACTLY; and all of mankind who follow ; all who are born {born blind} are fathered by this this action; born from the actions of the darkness

Agreed!

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For thou wilt light my candle: the LORD my God will enlighten my darkness
David is prophetically speaking of the day;
WHEN JESUS  kinsman redeems mankind and sends the HOLY SPIRIT to dwell within {and sustain that new life} the person who is redeemed.

Yet David already had the Holy Spirit within, did he not?

"Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me.? Ps 51:11

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Bible Discussion / Re: Heaven/Revelation21-22
« on: November 11, 2012, 07:53:26 pm »
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me a world ; you a world; someone else a world BUT ; what makes us a light?

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AS LONG AS I AM THE WORLD ; i am the light
no one else is the light of the world until JESUS LEAVES THIS WORLD AND .......................
"Ye are the light of the world..." Matt 5:14
THAT LIGHT IS TRANSFERED
we see JESUS talking with "some" not all of the world
it is the ones who are believing and listening to him that will get that 'LIGHT"


"And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep... " Gen 1:2

Do not those words in Genesis describe the natural man without the Light of God, at least, as God would see him?

And then...

"And God said, Let there be light: and there was light. " Gen 1:3

Was this light other than Jesus?

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WHAT IS THAT LIGHT IN "US" ?
is it not the gift of the HOLY SPIRIT?
We are the light while Jesus is in us!
HOW CAN WE SAY Jesus in us; without seeing JESUS and the HOLY SPIRIT are one?
---------- OR DO YOU HAVE other comments on how this is so?

Yes, the Light is that which enables us to see and hear that which God has for us. It enables us speak when something needs to be said. The "yea or nay" is the choice of carnal men. With the Holy Ghost leading us more will come out of our mouths than that. When we are led by our own logic or our own ways, we will speak what we should not speak. The double-minded man sometimes is led by the Holy Ghost, and sometimes not. Most of us who believe are too often double-minded.

No matter what the Holy Ghost is, it is certainly One with Jesus. That is where we need to be also, always.

The "gift" of the Holy Ghost is that which would comfort us, and teach us, and direct us from within. Perhaps many people (the many being a small number of the multitudes of people) have received this gift, but too many of them have failed to hear it or follow it. So the few gets fewer, it would seem.

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